Hey Madeline, hope you’re staying safe with the coronavirus going around and people going nuts. All of our schools, libraries, live theatres, and sports venues are shut down for at least a month, and people are clearing our grocery stores through panic buying, but other than that everything is fine here for the moment.
Hi Sarah, I'm well! I hope you are too. I'm sorry I haven't been able to be on here much lately. It's been pretty stressful. Everything has shut down here too, and my work has us working from home until at least May 4th.
It's certainly been a long time coming. I saw Tammy speak a few times, and someone asked her why no one has approached her about film/TV rights (this was a while ago) and she said they had but there requirements in the contract were absolutely ridiculous. I remember her saying that one required her to give up the rights to the character of Alanna completely... which obviously does not work haha, so I'm glad she found a contract that worked for the Tortall Universe!
Me too. I just hope these stay true to the books. I’ve never had the chance to see Tammy speak, but would love to some day if she’s ever around where I live. I know she’s answered some QnA stuff online about it in the past.
At the same time, I wouldn't mind if SOME of it were changed... a few things happened in those books that I do not think would hold up well. Like the Daine/Numair pairing at that point in Daine's life is iffy to say the least.
Oh, definitely not as bad as GoT, but a lot of the iffy parts in GoT made me stop watching after the first season anyway.
I never cared for that pairing, and reading it back as an adult makes me so uncomfortable. I think they get together when they're 16/32, right? And not only that but he was her parental figure/teacher for years...
Is there anyone else we are missing to go into the Scanran War category? I’ve run out of people I can think of who belong in that category but who aren’t listed yet. I think between the two of us we’ve gotten most, if not all, of them in the last week or so... the last several names I thought of already were in it.
Sorry to hear that. I’ve been mostly working on designing concrete beams for a hospital addition. Before that I was doing pretty much the same for a university’s chemistry building. Also working on restoring the facade of a baseball stadium, which is fun. I’m a bit tired of concrete now, though...
Hi Sarah, for some reason, this did not allow me to post on your wall, so I'm posting it here.
I'm wondering why you're using title case instead of sentence case for article headings and subheadings. The style is based on the Wikipedia Manual of Style, and has been used as a standard on the wiki since the beginning.
(It's my fault for not bringing this up sooner, I should have looked.)
Honestly, I think the titles and headings should be capitalized like titles and headings. I saw a ton of pages while going through doing infobox and default sort stuff that were mixed between title case and sentence case, and that was definitely not right. I understand that sentence case has been used since the start of this wikia but it doesn’t look good with headings that aren’t capitalized (and really, just because something has always been done a certain way doesn’t mean that that’s the best way). Feel free to change them back if you want, but I want it known that I absolutely do not like the sentence style. It makes it look like we don’t know how to properly capitalize headings. Sorry for the rant. Not upset and I hope it didn’t come off as rude since that’s not what I intended. Just some strong feelings on this side.
I personally think title case looks awkward on wiki and doesn't flow on a single page as well as sentence case. If there were multiple pages and sections to each article, I could see your point. I disagree that it doesn't look as if we know how to do headings, since it's very standardized on wikipedia and on many different wikis. It's also meant to evoke a more casual and conversational tone, as well as make the flow of words more natural. Title case makes scanning a page more difficult, and evokes a more official tone than we need. There's a reason why sentence case is used by wikipedia itself and many wikis and it's not because it's always been that way. The same argument could also be made against title case (and likely had been when Wikipedia was first creating their Manual of Style).
Whatever... I don't like it, but I don't want to argue with you and I know you're not going to change your mind. You should know, though, that there are a TON of pages that mix the two styles, so for consistency's sake, a lot of pages are going to need their headings updated.
After having time to reflect, I actually don't really mind. I do think that when the heading is longer and is more descriptive, sentence case looks better than title case, but for things like "Early Life" and "Notes and References", it works. I know that some characters have more descriptive subheadings in their biography sections, and I really don't think we should use title case for that. In some academia, there are mixed headings, like APA style, in which first headings are in title case, and descriptive subheadings are in sentence case.
That works for me, I guess. Short headings in title case and descriptive sentence-like headings in sentence case. Or maybe just bigger category headings in title case and the smaller subheadings in sentences case, as you say in APA with mixed headings.
I came across the page of Elspetra Rittevon while updating infoboxes today. It says on the page that Tamora Pierce mentioned her on the internet, but there is no reference available to check and a Google search for her yielded me no results.
The page lists you as the only contributer, so I was wondering if you remember where you saw the information? It's fine if you don't, since you created and last edited the page back in 2016, but I think if we can't find any information for her anywhere to be able to put a reference link, that we should delete the page. We can always bring it back later if her information pops up somewhere... I'll leave it up to you.
Huh, I think I must have got that from Oron Rittevon's page, where another contributor added characters like Veranine and Elspetra Rittevon. They could definitely be deleted. Some of Tammy's old online interviews are on sites that are no longer around, like SHEROES.
Just so you’re aware, I was very bored with nothing real-life to do this past weekend, so I did some cleaning up of a bunch of pages. I went through and changed as many of the generic Character infoboxes to their more specific ones as I could, made sure characters that were listed as appearing or being mentioned in books were included in those categories (and deleted categories for books where they didn’t actually appear), and went into source mode on a bunch of pages to make the infobox stuff easier to see and find (it doesn’t change how anything looks on the actual pages or in visual editor, but it made me feel better seeing it organized).
I didn’t really touch any circle characters to edit categories and such because don’t remember any of them, but did the Tortall ones.
Oh! I also went through and made sure pages that had character first and last names in their titles had a “default sort” added so they appear correctly in categories where they’re listed (and fixed some that had spelling errors or didn’t have accents where they should). It looks like I added a lot of categories to those pages, but there’s just something odd with Wikia that if you add or update default sort it assumes you added the categories as well (which is super weird).
Anyway, sorry for the book of text above, but that’s what I’ve been up to in your absence this week.
Thanks for doing the behind the scenes work! I've had a pretty busy summer and was traveling all last week, hence the silence on my end. I plan to do some work on the Tempests and Slaughter pages in the coming week as I finally got an ebook from my digital library.
I caught and fixed that “human” instead of “human era” typo I made a few times... guess I missed the one on Topabaw’s page!
My summer is going well. Been busy working on concrete beam designs for a new college chemistry lab building. Not a lot of time to relax but have taken a few days off here and there. 3-day weekend coming up since I’m taking Monday off to celebrate my birthday!
Oh my god, the amount of frustration I feel when seeing that Tammy said that Alanna's new baby was a girl online but did not name her... WHY
I know! I feel the same. In my own mind, I imagine it to be Marinie to honor her mom or some variation of Eleni. I wish she’d just tell us the name. There are other names we are missing too, Kaddar’s father, Roger’s parents, Neal’s daughter... at least we finally know Cathal’s name, though from something Baird said in the books it sounds like Neal has several younger sisters and at least one other brother who we know nothing about...
And how is Vanget related to the rest of the Minchi’s?! I’ve tried and failed to remember to check tumblr when she does askbox QNA, to be able to ask some of my burning questions. Perhaps we should start a list here and ask her if we ever get the chance...
And so far as sheroes no longer existing... I know at least some of that information has been transferred to tpwords at wordpress. She answered a few of my questions personally on sheroes and those answers exist on tpwords. I’ve been keeping track of info she has provided in tumblr (there’s a link to my list on my profile page at the botttom, my To Do List - to check if it has been added). I haven’t taken the time to go through all her Reddit AMAs, or check her twitter where she has answered even more fan questions. There’s a link on her main website saying that there’s a project to reply to all fan mail sent to her email account, so I have a response coming at some point about magic and healing in Tortall and about the wacky math that happened with Roger and his parents...
I always thought that since the Minchi family was so big, Vanget was in the extended family, and was a brother/cousin/uncle of the Duke or something. Like, not in the direct line of succession to the dukedom but still a really important member of the family. I don't think we ever actually meet the Duke haMinch right?
Yeah, I just find it very odd that one of the most important Minchis we meet in the books wasn’t even included in that list. So far as I know there are only 5 named Minchis in the book, Vanget, Padrach, Padraig (x2), and Kieran... it just seems weird that he wasn’t listed in the Spy’s Guide.
Yeah, her notes are likely not as in-depth as what we have on the wiki. I also think it's a bit annoying in Tempests and Slaughter when Arram meets several gods, but in Emperor Mage later in life, he says he has not met a god before? (maybe I'm remembering that incorrectly, but he acts like he has never met the Graveyard Hag) That was one of my biggest pet peeves with Tempests and Slaughter. Like, calm down with the gods. We get plenty of them in later series.
One of my big issues was with him being a healer mage. Baird point blank tells Neal in “Lady Knight” that Numair told him he can only do big magics or none at all. Healing is delicate work and Baird explains it in stark contrast to what Numair does...
Yeah, I agree. If he trained for healing since he was young, his power would mould to fit that no matter how strong he got in later years. Like using a muscle, which is how Tammy always describes it. Raoul can wield a heavy broadsword and lance, but can also sew really fast.
I've started looking into Crown Jewels and tiaras in modern royal families, and I kind of really want illustrations of the major Tortallan Crown jewels and tiaras now. Although I bet the Gallan ones would be spectacular as well.
Floorplans of all the major buildings that are featured would be spectacular. Even in The Will of the Empress when the floorplan of the imperial palace gets released to a villain to kidnap Sandry, it doesn't get released to readers :(. I think it would have been a nice touch.
Definitely for fun. It all started when a twitter thread about Elizabeth II's brooch warfare against Trump put out a lot of information about the Queen's jewelry and why she would wear certain pieces. It was pretty cool.
Yeah some of them are really really gaudy. I tend to like the simpler ones too, but that are also really elegant, like Princess Alexandra's Ogilvy Tiara, or Queen Mary's Diamond Bandeau tiara, or Queen Margrethe's Baden Palmette Tiara. I dislike the Luxembourg Empire Tiara, I just think it looks ridiculous.
Yes, yesterday on the 6th. I don't really know what to think about it. The writing is great, but I just wished she developed the world further in the future (or at least way in the past like she did with Beka Cooper), that way it didn't feel like a prequel series even though it was.
Just checked and I’m 17th on the list for a digital copy. I belong to three different library systems since I’ve moved for school and then for work, and have reserves set at all of them, so hopefully I can get it sooner rather than later.
Haha yup. Let me know what you think. I wasn't thrilled with it because I thought she kept on focusing on connections between these characters and others and the plot got muddled. It was good but it wasn't what I was hoping for.
And now a book by Farmer... I do find it a bit odd that with all of the "connections" she's making, nothing has been said of all the craziness happening in Tortall in 438-439... only about all the Carthaki heirs dying off. Unless there's mention farther into the book. I've got about 100 pages left, but by this point, Jonathan should already be king.
Right, it's like she completely forgot about Carthak's international relations with the northern countries, but she goes out of her way to make weird connections with the characters in other books. Also, and maybe I'm just remembering wrong, I thought she mischaracterized Arram. There was whole thing in the Immortals where it was implied that he had been really arrogant, and a lot of the problems that rose from running from Ozorne and certain death made him nicer? Instead she's characterized him as this earnest boy who can do everything perfectly, and I think that was detrimental to the book in its entirety. It made it boring, at least to me.
I was initially excited for a Briar Moss kind of character who grows and learns from his mistakes, and is not perfect at everything in the first few tries. I know Tammy can write the arrogant magic user who is sympathetic to readers, so I'm a bit annoyed that she sacrificed that to make Arram perfect and so so so so earnest.
It has been awhile since I read the Immortals book, but I always saw him as a humble, bookish, odd man. What I don’t get is that if he was such a good healer, why does he never heal in any of the other books? Baird tells Kel in LK that Numair can only do big Magic’s and that he can’t light a candle, but it seems now that he can do delicate healer’s work, he just has no control over fire. I get that Sarge makes an appearance as a gladiator, and that connection made sense, but all the others just seemed so out of place. And I thought Tammy had said his magic turned black as he got stronger, yet here it seems it was always that way. The book just seemed to kind of end, too. Why stop at that particular point in time? Not my favorite of her books.
Tristan seemed very much in character for me, though I never saw Varice as particular talented with depth of magic. I’m curious to see what changes so much to make Ozorne turn on Arram since they seem so utterly devoted to each other. Is it just that Arram wants to leave Carthak? That seems a bit extreme. Also, Arram can’t be more than 13 by the end of the book and yet he’s described like he’s much older, with his feelings for Varice, and his towering height. There’s no way he went from normal sized to super tall before the age of 14. He would have just started a spurt then and wouldn’t even be near the height of a giant like Sarge...
Hmm, I remember a distinct point when Numair said that running from Ozorne changed his temperament, but I don't remember which book. Yeah, I think that Tammy made him powerful in all aspects when she kind of forgot that whole angle she had with him only being able to do incredibly strong magic.
How Tammy handled Varice and Ozorne annoyed me too. She really swept them to the side, and I think showing how Ozorne thought and more of his life would be much more compelling.
I don’t think we need things like Tortall and Tortallan royal family listed as affiliations for the King of Tortall. Both of those are very obvious based on who he is. I think it should be used more for people that the characters are affiliated with that aren’t listed elsewhere in the infobox or for events not listed elsewhere in the box.
I guess. I always saw it as an overarching sort of thing, mentioning groups of people as opposed to just childhood friends. Especially since Alex of Tirragen was certainly not affiliated with Jonathan before his death, and unless there are literally dates saying when exactly that affiliation ended, it doesn't work there. I can see the silliness of saying "Tortall" or "Tortallan royal family" though. Perhaps "Tortallan progressive faction"? Or choosing characters that are affiliated with Jon most recently?
Because two of those childhood friends mentioned are major players later on as well, I could see the point of adding them, and then in parentheticals saying (Commander of the King's Own) or (Second-in-command spymaster). Or we could also open up a section for "friends during page training" or whatever in the relationships section, and then have it link up in the infobox.
It's the same for Gary of Naxen's page. Alex of Tirragen and Francis of Nond were both there, but Alex betrayed Tortall before his death, and Francis died when they were young. They could be added to Gary's relationship section at the bottom (because it's pretty sparse) but I don't think they belong in Affiliation, it's a bit misleading.
Affiliation doesn’t mean “friends” or “current relationships”, though perhaps a friends section could be added to the templates. And though you and I have read all the books, everyone coming here probably has not. Francis may have only been in one book and died early, but he was clearly tied to Raoul at least, as his “blond shadow” and is definitely “affiliated” with him. Affiliation is just a connection, good or bad, long or short. For example, I would consider Daine and the Graveyard Hag to be “affiliated” even though it was only for a few days a long time ago and only so Daine could destroy the Carthaki palace... or like Draco and Harry Potter: their stories are intertwined, and though they’re clearly not friends but enemies, when searching for one of them, people would most likely also search for the other.
Perhaps sections for former friends, current friends, and enemies categories could be added to keep those separate from Affiliation. We need to have a clear consensus definition of what “affiliation” is so we don’t keep changing each other’s stuff moving forward because not only is that counterproductive but it leads to arguments we don’t need!
What do you think about adding new categories to the infobox, perhaps under a “Other Relationships” heading to separate it from “Family” with friends and whatnot and have affiliation only be for groups or factions that one belongs to but aren’t covered elsewhere in the infobox?
I know it doesn't necessarily mean "friends" but I honestly thought that's what you were going for (considering they all happen to be friends from childhood). And "affiliation" does have a positive connotation (not enemies) just because of the etymology. So yes, I think it's super misleading having enemies there with no explanation. And honestly, considering all the other characters (groups, enemies, and friends alike) that could be listed, Francis is a bit of a stretch. It's now been upwards of 30 years in-universe and I think the infobox should reflect the most recent information at least in that respect.
It can and should be mentioned in a relationships section though.
The ideas for sections are good, but we don't want the infobox to be too crowded, which is why it's great to save a lot of that stuff for a relationships section. If we do that, it should only be their main antagonist/ally in the book. Like with Kel, I wouldn't put all of Joren's cronies there, but Joren would be fine; and then obviously Maggur and Blayce.
I have a digital copy of the complete Protector of the Small series and one of Trickster's Queen from my library and they include a new short story about Bonedancer and a sneak peak of the upcoming Tempests and Slaughter. It might be worth a look at your library to see if they have the most up-to-date digital copies to included these bonuses as well. :)
Glad to see you’re back, I thought for a moment you’d left me here by myself...
Btw, since I noticed you edited his page: I think for Dunevon’s page, that it’s fine to leave Rubinyan as his successor, but I don’t think Imajane really belongs there. After all, she didn’t succeed Dunevon as King. She and Rubinyan may have ruled together, but we don’t show Thayet as a successor to Roald V, even though she rules with Jon. Thayet’s predecessor was Lianne... what do you think?
One more question. Could you take some time going through the Wanted Pages links and edit the archived talk and blog pages that they appear on to remove the bad links (like ones that are misspelled or older versions of pages that had name changes) so they don’t show on Wanted Pages anymore? I think we are getting close to being able to see all the wanted pages that are left, but those in particular are Admin-only and I can’t do anything about removing them. I’ve added several pages over the last week or so to try to take care of some pages higher up the list, and have a few that I removed (and noted to myself on my Notes page, to link back to once pages are created) hoping to get to the end of List since it maxes out at 1000 pages.
I don't agree. The successor for a king regnant is whoever becomes regnant after him. If you look at William IV of England's page on wikipedia, he is titled as King but his successor is still Queen Victoria since she succeeded him as the monarch regnant. Since Imajane and Rubinyan are co-monarchs who acceded the throne at the same time, they would both be listed as successors to Dunevon.
Since Jonathan succeded his father before marrying Thayet, I think it's fine to leave Thayet out of it because she didn't rise with Jon at the same time. But that's just me. We could add her, but Imajane definitely belongs there with Rubinyan as Dunevon's successor. If Imajane was consort (which would not have made sense because she was the Rittevon), then I would agree that she does not belong as Dunevon's successor, but she was co-regnant. That is why I don't think Thayet should be listed as Lianne's successor, as Lianne was technically a consort, not a co-monarch, and Thayet is very distinctly a co-monarch.
I can look into the Wanted Pages but I know that my time on here will be sporadic for the next month or so. I gave you admin rights to offset that. One thing to keep in mind, it shows you a lot of templates for the Wanted Pages. Please don't mess with those since there is a disconnect and perfectly functioning and created templates on the site are being listed in Wanted Pages.
One thing though, and I forget if we came to a conclusion about this. Aly the redirect has been deleted, but the problem is that Aly is what many readers know her by. So if they come to the wiki and search for Aly, Alianne Crow doesn't even pop up. I think that's a bit of a problem. I don't think there's anything wrong with having canon nicknames be redirects. I don't think that looks messy because it's part of the universe, not misspelled, and will only further help whoever comes on this wiki looking for information. Especially if that nickname is what most readers know her by and what she is referred to throughout the books by most characters.
I see what you mean about Rubinyan and Imajane, now that you’ve explained your side. I NEVER mess with the templates, I don’t want to accidentally delete something that shouldn’t be so have shied away from all of those. I haven’t yet gotten around to adding back redirects, but Aly is a good one to include. The redirects List is cleaned up now, so add back any you think we should have, no problem! :)
Why did you change the title of Baird’s infobox from Duke Baird to just Baird? That spot is for the name they’re known by and he is only ever referred to as “Duke Baird” in the novels. It looks very weird to me to just have “Baird” in that spot on his page, since he’s never called that in the books.
If you removed it because his title “Duke of Queenscove” is listed right below, I would like to say that it does not bother me in the slightest to have his name with title listed above, and his full title listed below. I think the infobox names should be what they’re know by, so for example, “Merric of Hollyrose”, “Princess Shinkokami”, “Numair Salmalín”, “Duke Baird”, “Jonathan IV”.
I can see where titles change that leaving them off would be better, like Jon being a prince and a king in the books or Raoul being “Sir” and then “Lord”, but especially for characters like Duke Baird who was only ever referred to as “Duke Baird”, I think that title belongs there as his “name” in the infobox.
And especially when two characters have the same first name, the infobox is a big clue as which character the article is about. In this case it distinguishes his page as that of Duke Baird as opposed to Prince Baird.
I think it flows better especially when the title is right underneath the name, and that's why it doesn't look very good to me if the title is echoed right below. But in the end, if you strongly think it should be changed, go ahead. And I'm not sure who put Numair's infobox to read Master Numair, but it 100% was not me and I definitely think it should have his last name like you say it should.
I also think George Cooper's infobox should read George Cooper, instead of George of Pirate's Swoop. If we're going off what he is most known by, it's "George Cooper". And that's technically the name he kept even as the Baron.
I agree about George. I think perhaps the name bolder in the first paragraph should be his most recent name, but I really do think that the infobox names should be what they’re referred to in the books/ most known by. Definitely should be George Cooper.
I like the Liege Lord addition you made to the RoyalNoble template. :) Can you add it to the main Character template and the two Commoner templates as well? I can add them this evening if you don’t have time before then. I’m currently at work, just checking in, on break at the moment.
I think just in the position categories, titles are sort of their own thing.
Allegiance would be good to add right before affilitation, for things like countries or monarchs. It would definitely be a good add for Tristan's page, as even though his origin is unknown, he definitely had allegiance to Ozorne and Carthak!
Oh no! My copy is coming shortly (I didn't preorder it) but I saw a sample and New Hope was written as New Haven. Which isn't bad, but for someone who knows a LOT about the universe just from working on this wiki alone, it'll be a bit of an annoyance to read the omissions/changes.
There’s a timeline of kings, that I mentioned above, right before the “official timeline” which doesn’t include anything from the Beka books, by the way, and the dates for the royal children’s birth years are different between the timelines. Also, only one map! I kept waiting for more to show up. You do find out Neal’s second brother’s name though, and Buri’s parents and Benek’s last name. I’ll start adding those kinds of things to the pages tonight once I get on my computer. She did spell “Lianne” wrong once, and I noticed a “West” that should have been “East”. I didn’t even notice the New Hope/ New Haven mixup the first time... There were some really good bits in it, though, had me laughing at several points. Hope you don’t have to wait to much longer for yours, it’s very interesting!
While writing up the line of succession, I noticed several inconsistencies... no Baird I, no Jonathan I or Jonathan III, King Roger II is now King Roger III, and Jon's father Roald appears to have been born years later than math would suggest. Also, apparently Jasson III conquered Barzun when he was 10... No mention of King Roald's brother or Duke Roger, which I though was odd as well.
Also, you will notice that I have updated the Roald's regnal numbers and King Roger's to match the new line of succession. I left redirects behind when I renamed the pages so for the time-being, until all updates can be made where links to the old numbered pages exist, those old page names will still link to the same pages.
I do think for readers' sakes, we should point out inconsistencies in the notes and references section. I say change the regnal numbers for the article name, but be sure to note the difference in the article.
As for different spellings of characters, like "Norrin" (how it was spelled in Lioness Rampant) vs. Norren (how it's spelled in Spy's Guide), we keep the article as the original spelling, and write the alternative spelling in the article head in bold. I don't think that's a major problem to fix because the difference between four hundred years in the universe, there might be some alternative spellings just like in our universe when one goes back four hundred years.
Do you know if the Padraig of haMinch in the book is the Padraig of haMinch who was appointed training master? It doesn't say anything in the occupation section but everything else matches up. (pg. 101)
I would have loved family trees!! And more maps, I really wanted more maps - at least to show the home fiefs of the major characters... I'm thinking of adding some of Thom's more factual comments to the Succession Line page instead of creating individual pages for the past kings, what do you think?
That would be my guess. It's difficult to tell how big some of these families are. We know haMinch is huge (I was hoping after she mentioned another list that it would show up later) but not much about the other families.
Learning the names of some new K'miri and Bazhir tribes though :)
It would be cool if over a span of 10 pages, they had a different zoomed in part of Tortall and the Eastern Lands. Or if they had Thom try to map it for a cartography class or something. That would have been funny, I think. I would have liked both.
Yeah! Where was Vanget? We know he wouldn't be the head of the family because Padraig's brother is the Duke. He's likely an uncle or something. At first I thought she was doing just immediate family, but then she added nephews and nieces but didn't add Padraig's parents? I thought that was more confusing than anything for a biography of a nobleman.
I was thinking maybe Vanget is a cousin instead. I always imagined him in his late 50s, early 60s, around the same age as she states Padraig is. Only listing Padrach leaves Gavin and Keiran's parents a mystery as well, though I think it's safe to assume they're the children of his brothers, considering how may nieces and nephews he has.
And did you ever imaging that Numair's family would be so huge? Surprised the heck out of me!
Oh yeah, I keep on thinking of Padraig as being Kel's age for some reason no matter how many times I look at his write up. And no! I didn't, that surprised me as well. Anything about Numair is fresh in her mind, too. Also Uline of Hannalof as a spy!
I couldn't believe it either! And I had thought he married a Naxen 3rd cousin... guess not a Naxen, though... I was surprised at no mention of the Dunlaths; weren't they supposed to be closely related to the Crown? That's why Maura's sister acted like she was a princess...
Fourth cousins, and Yolane was in line for the throne, which means a Conté princess married into the Dunlaths. So by my calculations (and perhaps I'm wrong) that would mean the daughter of Roger IV "Ill-Fated", married into the Dunlaths.
So given the date for King Roald’s birth in Thom’s list, 393 HE, and Duke Roger’s birth year in 401 HE. If Roger’s father is Roald’s younger brother as Tammy says he is... he was at most 7 years old when Roger was born. The whole Roger is 15 years older than Jon thing always bothered me... it’s really a failure of math here...
Yeah, she definitely forgot about Roger and had a general math failure. Although I liked the chef part, I wish those pages were spent on people/events that we are familiar with, like family trees (with birthdates!) to show where Roger fits in.
I’m still baffled by the mysterious missing King Jonathans I and III and King Baird I. And Jonathan I was supposed to be king in the 100s HE, so I suspect that’s who she has listed as Jonathan II, but he was mentioned as the first Conté king, which makes me think he was supposed to have stolen the throne or some such, maybe married a lone princess heir... but she has Contés back to the Book of Gold and Coram said the family was in the Book of Silver.
And I’m sure some of that paragraph doesn’t make sense, but I hope you get the gist!
Yeah, I’m pretty sure Coram tells George the family is in the Book of Silver... Alanna’s family is in the Book of Gold and the Trebonds are older than the Contés. It may not have been Coram, but I’m 99% it is explicitly stated in the books that the family is in the Book of Silver (I’ll try to find the reference). And now that I think about it, Neal said that Jonathan I wrote about the four houses being the shield of Tortall, so Jonathan I should appear at that point in the timeline at least, but in the list by Thom, they become “the shield” during the reigns of Roger III and Gareth III, who are both definitely Contés. The line of succession is so out of whack...
I meant Liam, not George... still looking for the reference.
Well, Coram tells Buri that the Trebonds were in the Book of Gold in Ch3 of Lioness Rampant... looks like it was just Tammy who said the Contés are in the Book of Silver. She had previously stated that Gold started 630 years beofre Alanna (fallen from the Thanic Empire), Silver started 170 years later, and copper 245 years after that.
Jonathan I took the throne 300 years before Alanna, 100 years before Roger and Gareth, of course in that same bit of info she called the Old King Jasson II... 90 years before Alanna/Kel's time.
Yeah, the only time I remembered Coram ever referencing the Books of Nobility was to say that Trebond was in the Book of Gold. What I don't understand is that someone besides Tammy and Julie must have looked at that timeline and been like, where is Jonathan I, even if they have no idea how important he was in prior information releases.
Yeah, there's a lot of math issues. And I'd think HaMinch would be considered a major power before the 200s because one of their daughters was a co-regnant of Tortall. Right? Or am I missing something.
A very early co-regnant! And it’s confusing that the first Conté kings aren’t listed as “of Conté”, but just as “Conté”. I’ve noticed similar things in the books, too. Lord Gershom was “of Haryse”, but Nestor was simply “Haryse”, and then there’s the Minchi’s, is it “of haMinch”, or just “haMinch”? Seems to me it should just be “haMinch” because of the “ha” part of the name, and now in the Guide she’s calling it “Great Minch”.
Bazhir names are bit confusing as well. It seems non-noble Bazhir Have last names, like the white common folk, and noble men at least use ibn, like Zahir and Qasim (I assume Qasim is because he could afford the Own), except I’m pretty sure ibn Nazzir wasn’t noble, just some whackjob shaman... and what do the Bazhir noblewomen use, is it ibn like the men or something else?
Yeah, I'd think it more important for the early Conté kings to be listed as "of Conté" because that's their claim to nobility. Whereas in the 400s, they've ruled for hundreds of years, so it's less important to have that designation. I always thought that Nestor was not "of Haryse" because he was a member of a common cadet branch, like the younger son of a younger son of a younger son, because the degree of cousinship between Nestor and Gershom was never stated. And I thought "haMinch" was just a lingual leftover from the early empires that stood where Tortall was, but then that would mean the same for the Contés.
And since "ibn" seems to have come from the Arabic "bin" which was a territorial designation, then both men and women would use it. And in this case, nobility.
I wish she would have included specific naming conventions in the Spy’s Guide. The Saren seem to use jin for men and jian for women, the Gallan common use the sra suffix when the father is known and sri when only the mother is, Tortallan and Tusaine nobles have “of” before a place designation in their name, but Scanran, Kyprin, and Carthaki nobles do not, and the Yamani have “noh”, -kami, and -kimi to designate relations to the old imperial line. But then you have oddities like Sarra Beneksri, who is named for her father and has a “sri” suffix, and Kora Ingensra, who appears to be Scanran, but has a “sra” suffix...
And didn’t Tammy say she was going to provide info on the structure of the Tortallan government? I didn’t really see that anywhere. We got the spy network, but not much else.
Also, I don’t know about you, but I really want to know what Rosto’s last name is.
And conventions for Marenties. She's already got herself into a bind with that one, because there's Fronia of Whitehall and then Nahom Jendrai, and both are Marenite nobles, but she could get out of it if she stated it was based on some technicality or something. Maps, family trees, naming conventions, more info on politics, etc. would have been nice. It would have been cool if Tammy went more into depth on the Conté children. She mentioned online that Jon was looking for royals from different nearby countries for his younger children to marry, so it would have been great to get those names and more in-depth information about them.
Also Jasson III ruling until 422 (and not even dying but abdicating) is really complicated. Because if either Jasson or Daneline were alive when Alanna entered page training, one would think they'd be important enough to mention. It's a huge inconsistency, and I'm still trying to get my mind around it.
Not to mention that the Contés are an extremely long-lived dynasty for a family that always seems to have a succession problem.
I think it’s only sporadically where they’ve had problems with succession. It seems, at least from Thom’s notes, that several of the monarchs had tons of children and grandchildren. When the monarchs didn’t have kids of their own, they at least had nieces and nephews to succeed them. And even with Roald V, Duke Roger was a Conté who could have inherited and carried on the family name... had he not gone crazy mad.